tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post3567396932344043056..comments2023-11-02T20:45:14.873+11:00Comments on eGov AU: What does the White Pages ruling mean for Australian government data?Craig Thomlerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18350603210658700252noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post-89858668790163372302010-02-19T17:04:04.525+11:002010-02-19T17:04:04.525+11:00Karina
I understand your concerns about Sensis b...Karina <br /><br />I understand your concerns about Sensis being misrepresented or Sensis brand being compromised in any way and that is a valid objection. However, that is a different situation from the use of the data for other purposes that have nothing to do with Sensis. To give you an example. Let us assume I have a social networking website that has a group of people who wish to communicate by telephone with each other. Rather than people having to put up their telephone number they could be looked up automatically and phoned directly. This brings Telstra business and is easier for the social networkers. As you do not charge people to look up their name in your directory it would seem difficult for you to justify stopping screen scraping as the only loss would be the extra cost from these extra hits on the search pages.<br /><br />The IPND data base is interesting. Perhaps you should be arguing that it be made available directly on line for people to look up others. That could take away any extra load on your websites?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18038868705690604351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post-3829274363442043222010-02-19T09:21:23.122+11:002010-02-19T09:21:23.122+11:00IANAL.
I'm happy with the decision, but there...IANAL.<br /><br />I'm happy with the decision, but there's some important things that should be read in the details of the ruling.<br /><br />The judge effectively said there was no intellectual / creative effort in it; but he clarified it:<br /> * Everything was done within a piece of software<br /> * The software set the rules<br /> * The software did a large amount of work automatically<br /> * Importantly, when users were needed to help improve, users could only choose options controlled by that bit of software (as defined by the rules) - basically, choose "A" or "B".<br /><br /><br />This means that things like the myschool.edu.au factual data (statistics, ratings, raw numbers) would be fine, but textual descriptions of the schools are not fine to infringe on - a human has put in some creative effort there to describe it.<br /><br />Since the statistics and descriptions are intertwined on the HTML rendering of myschool.edu.au, you might be in a bit of deep water if you utilised anything from there.<br /><br />However, it does give you a nice bit of leverage for a whole new category of sites.<br />IE: http://www.valuersboard.qld.gov.au/<br /><br />They flat out refused to grant access to the raw data, but now I'm more than within the bounds of the ruling to scrape the content.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07488865674446632285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post-13251218875903137942010-02-18T20:28:47.099+11:002010-02-18T20:28:47.099+11:00PS sorry for all the typos in previous comment, I ...PS sorry for all the typos in previous comment, I was having some refresh problems with the page.Yvonne R Thompsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post-65359251043360266122010-02-18T20:25:56.692+11:002010-02-18T20:25:56.692+11:00Glad to hear Sensis pursued this case because they...Glad to hear Sensis pursued this case because they wanted to "help". <br /><br />So what is the special contribution to this raw data? <br /><br />Did Sensis invent alphabetical order? <br /><br />Or did they invent a special structure, such as for addresses: street number, then street name and type, followed by suburb? I this is rather derivative.<br /><br />Does Sensis own my business name and address just because I list my business with them? I've given them use of a fact ie paid them to put it in their list and give others access to it. <br /><br />Now Sensis claim some form of ownership over the fact of my address or business name as well? Did I sign something handing over these rights of IP to Sensis? If you want to get technical, it may not be mine to give either. The local government 'created' the address when they assigned it to my property. So should Sensis pay royalties to the Councils everytime they use it? <br /><br />The address (if it's a 'quality' address) was hopefully assigned in compliance with AS/NZS 4819 Street Addressing Standard. That Standard was developed through the hard work of a group including representatives of state and national survey & mapping agencies and Australia Post, among others (no intellectual contribution from Sensis). <br /><br />So, technically, Sensis is leveraging off the hard work, thought and effort of governmnet emplyees who assignment addresses, and manage the roads and road names etc? After all, these are all value-adding processes, without which the address is a rather useless piece of information.<br /><br />Taken to logical conclusions many IP arguments turn silly very fast.<br /><br />The wider implication that Sensis need to take a fresh look at their business model.Yvonne R Thompsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post-70623759660814806352010-02-18T20:02:46.582+11:002010-02-18T20:02:46.582+11:00Thanks for the comment Karina.
Separating the IP ...Thanks for the comment Karina.<br /><br />Separating the IP in the design and format of the Yellow and White Pages from the raw data itself (names, addresses and numbers) will be an interesting challenge under Australian copyright laws.<br /><br />It would generate a very interesting precedent if successful.Craig Thomlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350603210658700252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post-34706694223906266522010-02-18T11:08:00.040+11:002010-02-18T11:08:00.040+11:00Indeed the Telsta case provides a great precident ...Indeed the Telsta case provides a great precident that clarifies the law even more. I used this case as justification for publishing the http://www.myschool.edu.au/ raw data.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8750343339904865739.post-62795324381034511702010-02-18T10:41:01.036+11:002010-02-18T10:41:01.036+11:00Agree this case has wider implications. Importantl...Agree this case has wider implications. Importantly, Sensis pursued this case with the aim of helping ensure differentiation in the market thus encouraging fair play and reduced confusion for advertisers and consumers.<br /><br />We believe allowing others to mimic the content, format and branding of our products creates confusion among advertisers and consumers. Further, we think it inappropriate for others to springboard off the hard work, thought and effort our people put into the White Pages® and Yellow Pages® directories.<br /><br />Other directories businesses can apply to access the Integrated Public Number Database (IPND), which was created under the Telecommunications Act (1997) to foster competition in the directories business and includes raw data of all residential, business and government listings in Australia. To meet privacy concerns, the IPND database (like the White Pages® and Yellow® Pages directories) cannot be used for marketing purposes, only for the creation of directories.<br /><br />Sensis will be appealing the Federal Court’s decision.Karina Keislerhttp://about.sensis.com.aunoreply@blogger.com